Entrepreneurs Over 40 Episode 6 with Rick Terrien

0:00:01.4 S1: I guess today, learn the lessons of entrepreneurship very early, while selling newspapers, Caracas stop lights, he hasn't stopped creating a new business opportunity since he is awarded the US Small Business new product to the Award by the National Society of Professional Engineers, has also been recognized by Fast Company as one of their past 50 as an innovator, inventor and business developer with 90 US and foreign patents and industrial fluid recycling is the signs of recover tens of millions of gallons of oil worldwide, there were previously lost as waste water. He was recognized as a purpose prize fellow in 2015, is currently helping launch and lead one of the most innovative regional food organizations in the world. In summary, is a lifelong entrepreneur, and the author of age lets start up start a business at any age. Without further ado, Ritalin. Greg.

0:00:59.5 S2: Thanks for the invitation.

0:01:00.9 S1: Thank you for being here. Now, could you take a few moments and bring us up to speed with where you're at now...

0:01:07.7 S2: Sure. Well, it was brought to Pittsburgh where I'm currently living... I raised my family out in Wisconsin, I was recruited to come to Pittsburgh to help launch a new kind of a non-profit focusing on food sustainability, regional food sustainability. My background is a manufacturer, I lean into that end of the subject area, and I think we're building something really interesting here, but it's becoming a mature and successful organization, which means that I'm out of my league in a little bit, I'm at the start-up parts of these organizations, so I'm very pleased with where it's at, but I'm anxious to take the text of the book, The Angeles startup, and I am getting up a new non-profit around that that we love to create a global presence around. So it sounds like you enjoy the start-up portion of the business and probably creating systems... I do like the very earliest stages of this, it's messy and it's dirty, and there's usually all kinds of broken stuff all over the place. I like to be the first couple of people on site, the first one on-site for that, I quote a passage from Wellington, the Duke Wellington, the guy to beat a point, and he said that the entire art of war is knowing what's over the next hill.

0:02:30.8 S2: I'm usually that guidance over the hill first, sometimes I come back, sometimes I come back with arrows shot up all through me, but I usually like that first cutting edge of these things.

0:02:41.9 S1: I was looking at the majority of startups in the US or launch by people over 45. Why do you think that is? And both media itself seemed to indicate that everyone that creates a start-up as a young hip millennial code that lives out in San Francisco or somewhere in LA, and helicopters or segues to work.

0:03:01.8 S2: You beat me on the helicopter. Well done, yes. Right, the magazine covers are full of his young, usually guys, 20-somethings and they've got hockey stick returns and they're surrounded by the... During investors. That stuff's okay. There's nothing... In most cases, that if it's not illegal, it's fine, it's just that that is a small part of the story, that's like teaching kids on the playground that they can grow up to be in the NBA, when in fact the right thing to do is teach kids on the playground, but be lifelong active people and enjoy the trip is what I did learn is that the majority of startups are done by people who are 45 and older, it's a very exciting time to start to put a toe in the water because you get to guide that ripples that you put in that water towards creating your own legacy and solve problems that are in communities you love and markets that you love and with people that are your peers. So I think this is a big opportunity to shine a light on this end of the entrepreneurship story.

0:04:05.6 S1: Now, I know a little bit of your background, but has anyone in your family at all entrepreneurial or was it just kind of you took the leap and went from there...

0:04:14.7 S2: No, it's been a long-standing... Both of my grandfathers were entrepreneurs at some points in their lives, sometimes the majority, sometimes a second love, one of my grandfathers started a business after he retired, and it was a major orchard in Michigan, Second Half of Life to be sure, when my dad was... And my uncles were... So I saw it up close, and I just always assumed that that was a choice we could make, it was a much less common and talked about back in the plastic when I was thinking about this, but now it's a very common and... And men, it's encouraged as a life choice, but I learned it from the folks around me, and I've been just plain making my own path since then, I've been a self-employed entrepreneur for over 50 years.

0:05:02.8 S1: Now, I think growing up, I was never even an option that I even thought of to become an entrepreneur, and I felt some of the school system and then they just weren't as many opportunities, quite frankly, as there are now...

0:05:15.8 S2: Well, you're right, and in fact, there's something still persist in that, Greg, and it goes like this, I found us in my research for the book is that one of the biggest impediments to entrepreneurship is knowing an entrepreneur or knowing entrepreneurs, and the two groups in society that know the fewest entrepreneurs are young people and older people, eventually I'd like to help with this intergenerational bridge, I think that's the long game here, but the fact is, is if you can aggregate Angelus entrepreneurs, folks in the second half of life and start to treat that as a valuable and recognized category of work life, I think we can grow this into something significant.

0:05:54.1 S1: So you're saying that actually knowing somebody rather than having them be a model for you is actually an impediment... No.

0:06:00.6 S2: It was not knowing any entrepreneurs is the impediment, and then making that subject area just to raise it all up, the Rising Tide, lift all the bolts, there's all different kinds of entrepreneurs on in the second half of life, but it's very rarely reported on that, it's going on, but in fact, it is driving the system, there's more than a half of our startups, okay.

0:06:21.2 S1: Now how do you recommend somebody that has worked most of their life for them to explore on ponders hip and to take the next step? Sure.

0:06:30.4 S2: The sub-categories that I ended up breaking the book down as I was putting it together from my writing is three-fold, is you start small, I'll go through them first and then maybe we can circle back to him... You wanna start small, you wanna start smart, and most of all, you wanna start right now, and starting small, part of this is, if you take the total number of businesses we had in the United States, a pre-pandemic, there were 32 million businesses in the United States. Of those 32 million, 25 million of 32 were one-person businesses. I mean, that's over 75% of the businesses in the United States as a one-person business. There's no harm in ness, it's often looked down on... When I started an economic development agency of prior life, and I've got to learn that language and hang around with state and national and regional economic development types, they would sneer at one person businesses, it would call lifestyle businesses. Well, if it's your business and it's supporting your life, there's nothing like style about it, it's critical, and then you're making a contribution to the world, and in my lifetime, there's never been an easier time to wrap yourself in the armor of a one-person business.

0:07:43.7 S2: Get an LLC around you, get the insurance, get the banking that the world is getting set up for one-person businesses in ways that I've never seen before, so you wanna start small. It's the way to do it. The idea is, is that not to be a lone ranger as a one-person business, what to do the next part is to start smart and let's get yourself in a network of other small business people. That's why I'm helping start this center for angels entrepreneurs is what happens then, is you've got other peers that have had life experiences and separate skills and ones that you don't have, you have ones they don't have, now you can put yourself together as a team, you're Starting Smart and those teams can go out and meet individual projects as they come and go, and people can stay out there and longer terms on those projects or melt back into the group and pick it up again. So this idea of Starting Smart and we have these communication technologies, look at us now talking over the computers that are free and easy, and ways to put networks and solutions together, so that's the Start Smart part, and I would really like to help enable that with this new non-profit we're doing, but maybe the most important or drag is to start right now, and I try to quote that famous line about, when's the best time to plant a tree? And the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the next best time is today.

0:09:07.4 S2: I mean, these things take longer than you want, I'm doing it now for my team time, and it is driving me not so long, it's taking it... I'm just frustrated. And you just have to build that in. It does take a while, and so you're gonna start right now because it does take a while to get in the game and build the networks around yourself, so

0:09:28.1 S1: It wouldn't it be safer or just to continue on and if that's an option for somebody in a job that maybe they don't really hear for, but that pays the bills, provides insurance, etcetera, or do you think from what we've seen now, that actually is safer to become an entrepreneur or start your own company, I should say.

0:09:49.5 S2: So to your point exactly, is that... I'm not sure I heard the word hopefully, but I think it was intended in there, hopefully you'll still have that job and they'll keep any... And everything will be fine, and it'll all go forward, but putting your faith in that being a given, especially in the kind of environment we're in now, I think is really risky. They used to tell us when we were kids, it was really scary to start your own business, in my opinion, it is much area doesn't mean you have to leave that day job doesn't mean you have to, but relying on it entirely for the good way from the good will of whoever, all at the shareholders or the owners of it, they're probably wonderful people, but you go into it, you never know when these black lines are gonna come up... Here's this pandemic thing, who would have thought of this? And yet, when these companies are just blown apart and then they start coming back together, it's the older salaries, higher salaries, older workers may not have a seat when that kickback music stops, even though everybody likes you, and that's a wonderful life.

0:10:53.8 S2: And all of that, there's just circumstances that this happens, and we all live with aging and as... That's a factor too. So the fact of the matter is, I think you should turn that to your advantage and find other people with those life skills and learn to align in with them and to work together and take on some small projects and build down a more resilience in your life. Yeah.

0:11:18.2 S1: It seems like ages might be the the last ism that's socially acceptable, unfortunately.

0:11:25.1 S2: It is profound. It's everywhere, it's nasty. I'm not gonna solve it as much as I would love to, I have good friends who are working on it, what I think of this age less start-up in the center for Angelus entrepreneurs, it's providing an alternative is Let's just quit saying The glasses have empty and let's say the class is all we're a nation, a network of international network of people with knowledge and networks and skills, especially in the networks, the Rolodex is that we all have and the knowledge of what doesn't work mean... Good Lord, that's valuable. So that's my way around, aim is to do better than the problem, not feel oppressed by the problem, I like, of course it's there, and there's a lot of people who live with with the results of that, that shouldn't... This is one way to maybe you find a path around it.

0:12:17.4 S1: What do you recommend there the next steps for somebody... And I guess maybe we should even go back and ask what type of businesses do you recommend for either somebody that is just recently retired or somebody that fill in the workforce?

0:12:31.5 S2: Right, well, I think that this one person business model that I'm talking about, you can certainly grow up to more than that if need be, but in this day and age, once you get two or three people in that are highly skilled and they are playing their networks and their leverage, you can move on with really small teams, but... So for those really small companies that I'm recommending, I think certain kinds of consulting, subject matter expertise that you can share right away, everybody goes to... Well, that's... You gotta be a neuro scientist or a physicist or we have some tablet from the mountain top, but the world needs landscapers and they're gonna need advice on corporate landscaping or fire safety suppression suppression systems. There's room to advise people going forward on virtually every subject, and especially if you can combine that with your peers into a cohesive package that meets a specific demand at a specific time, these are wonderful. Now, these are one-person business is not going to make the cover of most magazines, there are no hockey stick returns, the returns are often quite miles. There was a survey that... It was un-core dot org.

0:13:50.3 S2: I really like that organization, they did a survey a while back, but they asked these folks in this demographic, if you had your own small business, did a start-up, How much more money would you make you happy? And the overwhelming majority of us said if they could make 15 to 20 grand in addition to what they had coming in, they'd be thrilled to be making a contribution, it would be putting some more resiliency and safety net into their life, and it can certainly grow it more than that, a group wanted to make 50 or 60, and it's fine, these are probably not million dollar consulting jobs unless maybe you are a neuroscientist, but for the rest of us landscapers out here and all of the people with these skills that we raised our family around, there's plenty of room to do new kinds of commerce around that, you can advise people on landscape, if you're in Portland, Maine, you can advise somebody in Portland, Oregon and how to do it, their money is just as good, so

0:14:44.3 S1: You advise not reinventing the wheel necessarily but just taking what you know and packaging it and doing that route and doing consulting or something along those lines, and

0:14:54.2 S2: If I had to choose among the problems that I was gonna look at, it reminds me of two different newspaper articles that were written about work, I was doing, they were 20 years apart. One was back in the very early as banner business, and one was in an engineering business later on, and the headlines were the same, it was Victorian does work nobody else wants, and that's finding... If you're a landscape or what is the hardest part, where's the problem in landscaping or in Neuroscience or in fire suppression systems, there is a problem somewhere in here, and if you're from those markets, you know where the problem is somewhere in the supply chain, somewhere in the communications chain, you know where that problem is, and that's a value that newer people to an industry may not have that insight, so I would set myself up as a one-person business and I would go tackle that problem and become the subject matter expert in that problem, that's how I have guided each of my next steps, I usually go find broken stuff, broken stuff... Or stuff that no one wants to do and go from there.

0:15:53.3 S2: Correct.

0:15:53.9 S1: And

0:15:54.1 S2: If you can innovate in even the slightest way, you don't need intellectual property, you just a trade secret, something that you're doing a little bit different than the average bear, it gives you a heads up, and I'll read something from my favorite business author is right over my computer here is this from Seth Godin, a really great business writer, and a says, The best way to make a hit is to build something for the smallest viable audience and make it so good that people tell their peers, that's the way we grow these little businesses, you wanna make them small, you don't need to necessarily have hockey stick, all the million likes and all of this stuff, but that's all fun and interesting, but you need to solve a problem and you need to sell it for a few people, or you can write invoices, and I'll pay you for Jack for sign

0:16:44.0 S1: Here. Press are.

0:16:45.0 S2: That's right, that's right. That's exactly right.

0:16:48.1 S1: Is there any form of validation that you recommend people do, or should they go in and set up a company and so for bank account or how should they go about making sure that this is actually going to work?

0:16:58.7 S2: Right. Well, I am biased in the sense, in agreement with what you just said when we were younger, there was this idea of putting a corporation around yourself, you had to get a seat Corporation and register in Delaware and double taxation. And right now, the system is set up where you can get a corporate entity around yourself for a couple hundred bucks, and usually do it in a couple of weeks. Every state is slightly different. And in this case, I'm talking about the limited liability companies, LLC is easy to get, the reason is an end game, not necessarily at the start... Anybody can start a business, you don't have to have those things. But if you start interacting with other entrepreneurs, they don't want an amateur in their network, the networks are only as strong as the weakest link here, and if somebody doesn't have their business insurance and the business banking and a corporation where the other people in the group can look at it and say like, you're playing by these rules, showing me the roles, but are those... I just need to know, we've all been led astray by big personalities and people who can do stuff, this is a game of just checking boxes in many cases before in it's tedious, but it's the fastest way to ensure stability in your business life.

0:18:15.2 S2: So I'm a big fan of an advocate of putting this corporate armor around yourself, it's cheap insurance, the old atlases, half full side of this or empty, whatever one it is, if somebody sues your new company for something and you don't have one of those little corporations to take away everything you've got, but if you're a corporation and it's done something wrong, they can take that corporation and take it apart, but you are still not a risk to your family and your loved ones in your own life, unless of course you've done something pretty heinous but there's other reasons you do, these wide corporations were invented centuries ago is to put some limited liability around it, that's now trickled down to individuals in these societies that can do the same thing and protect themselves, but it's a road map for dealing with others rather than so much as one to protect yourself.

0:19:09.5 S1: That is your book, ageless start-up. Kinda go into how to do that.

0:19:15.8 S2: At great length, I wanted it to be a very, very inspirational book, and my wonderful editor made me put in a whole bunch of checklists and they're very good, so there is the inspirational part, and that's the part I like and I most enjoy, but there are plenty of checklists at each stage for judging yourself going in and you assign strengths and weaknesses to the ideas, how do you roll them out, who's the first customers, what do you need to be in place? What do you need to keep... Information you need to gather from those customers, it's all in there, it is a handbook, and there are many handbooks for starting small businesses, but this one in between the inspirational stuff is probably people like the title of your podcast is porting it up. There's a great quote from Dr. Carl Schram, it's on the cover of the book, Dr. SRAM was the leader of the Clubman Foundation for entrepreneurship, led that into its glory, or he said that it's a brilliant ageless startup as a handbook for how to shape your future, so your most rewarding work lies ahead, work that benefits you and make a difference in the lives of countless others, a must for career planning for anyone over 40.

0:20:33.9 S2: So Dr. Ram and I kind of a grand is I tell people to start thinking about this at 40, start planning it at 45 and starting it at 50. I've

0:20:41.0 S1: Always wanted to start my own business, but I just never really Who, how or what... I can remember being in a brander and trying to brainstorm stuff and it just never took off, I didn't have the right friends, like a Bill Gates or quite possibly they didn't have the right

0:20:55.0 S2: Friend. Well, when you're in the room with your friends looking up for ideas, it's the late pizza delivery or it's the some broken piece of the... What happened that night that everybody just brushed aside and said, Oh damn, as a problem, you... Well, that's the opportunity. It's not just the problem. How

0:21:12.9 S1: Much do you estimate that it cost to launch a one person start off.

0:21:17.0 S2: You can honestly do it for a few hundred dollars, the most expensive things are going to be the formation with your state, and in the book, there's a state-by-state resource listing at the back of where to start, I know how to find us, at least to a... They ask questions of, but it's usually 00 or most a few hundred dollars to form an LLC the first time. It's very simple, all every state is encouraging this in their citizen, you Lin have some business insurance, and it's a simple basic business liability insurance, so there'll be some cost to that, but almost all the insurance have basic business packages to match up with just this kind... We're not gonna be down building construction on 40-story apartment buildings that are gonna collapse and kill people, these are generally advice-led businesses, so the cost of insuring them is equally small, and then the rest of it is really not much... Most of us down to the... Even if you need to just program it on your phone, there's a million ways to get in contact with people now, all these new networking services, new ways to contact and meet with people...

0:22:24.3 S2: I have a riot with this right now, I've never seen an easier time to do sales, and I'm not getting on an airplane, I'm not driving 67-00 miles, I'm not getting up at three in the morning, that gets in place. And it doesn't cost anything. So it's a long-winded answer, Ragusa. It's really very inexpensive. It's a few hundred bucks, you want a presence on the web and you wanna have your hard-wired armor around you and you're good to go, now

0:22:50.6 S1: You hit on something that a lot of people may or may not have experience with or that sales... Can you walk through how you recommend somebody... Getting over that fear, I'm hesitant to say that it's easy because people... It's like public speaking. People are afraid of it. And

0:23:08.5 S2: In fact, now nobody likes sales people either, right, and you're getting... Let me go talk to my manager. I got to... There was a place for that stuff. Maybe when there was dinosaurs walking around, but now people are out searching for answers to make their lives better, and if you can be a subject matter expert and talk calmly and explain the package in your solution, that's all the salesmanship you really need to know. Now, how you get in front of those people, I think is, this is the easiest I've ever seen it in my entire life. I mean, look at this club house phenomenon is on the phone right now, you can meet in anything, you can have 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 people, there's one-on-one versions of that, lunch club is a very good on all kinds of networking tools to put you in front of somebody and you wanna find out what they're doing and what their value is, you may need it, right. They're in that room self-selecting to find out what it is that others are doing and how they can improve their lives by subject matter expertise, you...

0:24:16.4 S2: Ah, I think it's as literally as simple as showing up in these new kinds of collegial spaces online, and once you get a little bit of this under your belt, most of the media loves talking about solutions and good news, and something better than what we've been through and so then that free media comes to you and you don't get to control what's written, but you get your name in front of all kinds of new audiences, and that's the start. Now, part about this, it takes a while to develop these, but you do it one or two at a time, you don't want 50000 people coming through and on to buy something from you tomorrow.

0:24:53.8 S1: I think a lot of people to think of sales as past experiences have been somebody trying to sell a tractor to someone that lives in an apartment... Right, you're... Obviously, I'm not advocating that you're just trying to sell somebody a solution that will help make their life easier.

0:25:09.9 S2: And the new kind of sales is... First of all, you talk less than anybody in the room, vassals people say the fewest words, and you wanna say no to people more than you say yes, because you want a client and a customer that you can actually solve the problem for it, and if you can't you don't want the bad will, so you end up saying No more than yes, and people respect that, and you just say, No, I'd love to help, but don't give me that. And then the next thing is, But I know Ellen in my network that does just add... Can I introduce you now? You have made a future sale and you've made something for Helen, and Helen's probably gonna kick somebody to you and there we go.

0:25:46.9 S1: Has there been anything that we've not covered that you would like to cover? So

0:25:50.7 S2: The book is doing fine, and I love talking about this book, and I'm really glad I got it in place, but a book only goes so far and you're not connecting and it's a limited value, so how do you translate that into actual value and grow this subject, for a wider audience, I started a non-profit after this was published, I had a whole public speaking career set up as the pandemic was being overwhelming us, and that option needed to change quickly. So I started thinking, what can I do? And it's debating in front of a few hundred people at a speaking about, why don't I try to get in front of millions of people and maybe ultimately billions of people, and making life a little bit better for people with a specific problem, and that problem is, was described as work life, in the second half of life, we're at risk and we need more resilient, we need a little more income, we need to solve problems in our own communities, so I changed from my public speaking to change it into a... Start a non-profit around it, and we've got our IRS approval, it's a 5013.

0:27:07.2 S2: I got a spectacular hard-working board of directors, all of whom are working entrepreneurs in this ageless entrepreneur demographic, the idea is to start this as a self-help club, come and meet your peers, the idea is when you can meet three or four people on an evening and then you do that a few times over the course of a few months. When a project arises, that comes directly to you or to one of them and they say, Okay, yeah, I can do that, or you say, Yeah, I can do that, but I'm gonna need a team for this, so you go to them, you already earned their trust, you already know them, they've already... By being in the group, you know that they're meeting the minimum requirements of having these corporations and all the check boxes for insurance and all that stuff, you are working with your peers, that's a valuable exercise for somebody in that demographic to get into right now. I wanna make that infrastructure a safe place, bring them in, but I also think that there's a higher calling for everybody involved is if you take a group of really experienced older people who are emerging as new entrepreneurs and new subject matter experts, and instead of mixing them together, which is the first goal of mine, but what they're back together and face out to the world and say, This is the most powerful subject matter group that you'll ever find...

0:28:27.5 S2: I figured this out, Greg, I did the math, and I had to do it a couple of times. When there's 100 million people in the United States, between 45 and 65 right now, give or take survey before the pandemic, said the 25% of them wanted to start their own enterprise, now it's higher, it's up around a third, but even if you take a quarter, that's 25 million people, that's 10 years of job growth in the United States, if you took those 25 million people and just assume they had 30 years of experience at 50 or 55, something like that, That's 750 million human years of experience, that's a powerful value statement and look at all, the problems that could be applied to in their own communities and their own markets that they know, it is an opportunity in the class is definitely helpful. So my board uses, especially my Board Chair uses a phrase that, this could be the Angie's List for LinkedIn. I think that probably cuts of trademark coverage that I probably shouldn't get too enthusiastic about using, but that's the idea is that there's an ageless group within the LinkedIn and here's a screen of boatyard that group and people can come in and pick and choose among that demographic and those subject areas.

0:29:46.4 S1: Yeah, and LinkedIn has come up an incredible resource... I never thought I would use it as much as I have.

0:29:51.6 S2: Yeah, no, it's very good, it's a great way to reach across, not just industries, but across countries, I did a podcast interview yesterday with a young man in Omi, we met on LinkedIn. Very

0:30:05.1 S1: Cool. Well, what's the number one piece of advice that you can give our listeners?

0:30:09.3 S2: So I tell people that this entrepreneurship in the second half of life, it's not hard, it's just new and people are daunted by a new stuff at any age, but it's not hard, and many of people our age have done many harder things than this... It is not blessed knowledge that you get, it's some skill that you've learned and skin your knuckles over throughout your life that you can turn into a subject matter expert around and create your own entrepreneurship platform. It's not a way to buy shoes for the kids, it's not a way to pay rent, it's gonna take some time, but there's very few of us who don't need more resiliency and more security in our lives, and the fact that you can do this with your peers and solve some significant problems along the way is on...

0:30:57.0 S1: Resiliency is something that the pandemic has taught us that we need to have a say. Didn't see that coming.

0:31:04.6 S2: And nobody did. And that's one of his day job I have of working in the food systems is... We came so close to the CEO of Harmon set out loud, he said, the supply chain for the entire food system is breaking, that's a scary thing to say to the non-people... Yeah, my not... Should have said that. Well, you could have to... Right, and I don't know if it was a hot mic or what, but problems and dangers is opportunities. I'm not exactly sure how that quote all comes together, but people point to a Chinese proverb on it, we do have an opportunity right now, and there is danger around, especially for older workers, but the idea is to armor up, this isn't hard, it's just... Now you can do it, get that stuff in place. And take the first baby steps. If you don't expect the media high returns, if you are modest in your expectations, it could be a really life-changing event.

0:31:59.2 S1: Now, what's the URL for the Center for ages entrepreneur?

0:32:02.3 S2: Well, sure, so first, the book one, the book site is up and running and it's doing really well, so that is a Los startup dot com. And there is a sign-up sheet there, the Center for his entrepreneurs is ageless entrepreneurs dot org, and that has a Clover. It right now is where I'm building out that system, but it'll be opening probably in a month, and I'm taking inquiries now for people that wanna come in, we'll probably have a deep discount or even free Start what? We launch it as a pilot, but

0:32:36.7 S1: They're strong interest, I'm getting mentors from all over the world on nothing, it's really gonna be interesting 'cause this would be a great opportunity for people to get into the Center For Angelus entrepreneurs. I'm going to definitely sign up, we

0:32:48.1 S2: Got a place for your grantee waiting for it.

0:32:49.9 S1: Well, thank you, re for being a guest on entrepreneurs over 40. Look for his book, age will start up, start a business at any age on Amazon.

0:32:57.5 S2: Great, thank you, Greg, I appreciate the conversation.